My friend DSL in Virginia asked me to take some ILP-style photos of Cap. I had to wait until I went to flyball practice again because one of the other women in the club shows in conformation--I knew she'd be able to get Cap to stack more or less correctly. I didn't have the right leash but you get the idea.
Cap is now just over 15" at the shoulder--not such a tiny height dog anymore! He's gone through a growth spurt in the past two weeks and his frame has begun to fill out. He's now a hefty 19 lbs! That makes him heavier than all but Gracie, who's a very big girl--she tops out at 22 lbs--and Harry, who weighs 20 lbs. In comparison, Cap's play buddy Mimi is only 14.75" at the shoulder and weighs about 16 lbs.
Anyway, Cap is still too young and not yet neutered so I can't submit the ILP application but I thought I would post the photos and ask you folks the $64,000 question: what breed should I try to ILP him as?
I've spoken to some mini aussie handlers at the last flyball tournament and at the most recent agility trial. The agility people get pretty freaked out if you actually say "mini aussie" since even though that is what they do have, they don't want the AKC spies, who must be lurking everywhere, to hear them say it. One woman actually asked if I was trying to trap her! Good grief.
His back end looks like an aussie but his head looks more like a BC. Squished up a bit, but still more BC than aussie there. Here's a head shot my pet sitter took a couple of weeks ago.
The genetic test results (no, they are not back yet; maybe sometime in 2009?) may not be conclusive. Besides, they couldn't be used for the ILP application anyway.
So, dear readers, what to you think? BC or aussie for the ILP?
12 comments:
Well one thing I can say is if you want him to pass as a bc you better not have him stacked so straight.
Border collies do not hold their heads straight up.
You gonna have to get him to extend forward a bit and lower that head so the neck is more at 45deg angle than the almost 90deg you got him there. And to be more poignant he's going to have to be looking down not up.
Although there are tail less bcs, whoever is going to look at him from AKC reps, better know that too.
Some are pretty clueless when it comes to variety.
I don't know if I see much of aussie, even the butt seems too small for me.
Dunno.
Whatever he is though, he sure is turning out to be a very handsome little guy.
G.
I would go for tail less BC. Did you see the tail less BC in the AKC agility finals?? To me his coloring and head etc is more BC. But JMO of course. You will get a zillion people with a zillion opinions I am sure.
Isn't Daisey Peel's Fly a tail-less BC? I think the only thing about him that looks Aussie is his lack of a tail.
I still think he's part pap!
Anne
Anne, remember Katherine Elliot's tail less BC to, looked like Cap just BIGGER.
Gosia
Took care of lots of aussies and BCs.....still vote for mini-aussie as predominant, but can definitely see the BC more as he grows.
VAMom
Gosia;
I didn't remember Kathryn's BC being Tail-less. Of course, I think I only saw her run the dog once.
As for the size, three of the top 8 dogs in the 16-inch class at AKC nationals finals last week were Border Collies!
VA Mom... don't they use Paps in the mix of mini aussies?
VAMom, the problem is that AKC doesn't recognize "mini aussie" as a separate breed. It's either BC or Aus Shep or nothing.
Check out the official group site for mini aussies:
http://www.mascaonline.net/history.htm
According to them, mini aussies are just small aussies. No other breeds (such as papillons) were cross bred in.
Since he has a natural bobtail (I call it his "nubbin", as in "are you wiggling your nubbin??") I'm leaning more towards trying to ILP him as an Aussie. His bone is pretty fine but he does fit the mini aussie breed standard pretty well.
I would go for aussie based on his butt and his size. He is very fine boned, but then so are a lot of border collies! But I think he will fit the aussie standard more than the BC one.
I agree with the first post though, his front is very straight more like a terrier or something. BCs and aussies have less extended necks and more rounded shoulders.
I wonder if he could be an Aussie/Jack?!
I'm more curious than ever about the genetic results - harass them!
-D
I think the problem with how he looks in the photos is that the woman helping me shows terriers and stacked him up like a terrier.
He might, just maybe possibly, have terrier in him but I doubt it. Terriers I know and he's no terrier in temperament or behavior.
When he runs and walks on his own, he holds his head down almost level with his shoulders.
This was a dry run for the ILP application. I think if I teach him a natural stand command and take pictures that way, he'll look much more like an itty bitty aussie.
Okay, okay....so there's no such thing as mini-aussie, but I think Cap still fits aussie more, overall, than BC. Yeah, I'm interested in what the genetic test results are, too. Maybe I'm just missing something, but I can't see any Pap in him anywhere. Oh well, he's a handsome boy and lucky to have such a great doggie-Mom!
VAMom
The genetic tests might really surprise you. I have a friend that rescued a very mixed breed dog they found in a parking garage, complete with crate, food, toys and a note...
I thought the dog was a lab mixed with God knows what else. It turns out it is lab, Aust Shepherd, Saluki, and chihuahua!!!
Would you have guessed that combination???
Since the genetic variability between different dog breeds is tiny (there is a very tiny difference in total genetic content, less than a percent; breeds look different because different genes are turned on or off in different breeds, not because they contain different genes). So I doubt the mix is really saluki crossed with chi crossed with .... If you read the web sites of the testing places, it's clear that those sorts of results are not "real". Sure, there is a genetic marker in that dog that is also often associated with chihuahuas but that doesn't mean the dog is part chihuahua since almost all dogs have that same marker; it just happened to get flagged in that particular test in that particular dog.
There are numerous anecdotal examples of supposedly pure bred dogs with five or more generations of established pedigrees getting genetic test results exactly like the mix.
I think there is quite a bit of subjective interpretation of the test results by the scientists at the testing labs. They may ignore one marker in favor of another.
Notice that all of the sites strongly encourage that you send them a picture. Not that a picture would bias them or anything, no.
Still, the genetic testing procedures will get better with time. The more samples they analyze, the bigger their database of unique sequences becomes, and the more reliable the results will be in the future.
I believe that I am contributing to advancing the science. I don't believe I will get any particularly definitive data about my dog. I've blown $100 on stupider things.
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